and i'm going to cut that one little bit because the one i have serious problems on a personal level and i was unable to live there with you much i'm going to. want to know their story and feel like grits turf i didn't reliable information for margaret's. labeling flatting you're quoting a killer accusing china of genocide against the oig or people the by the administration has taken off the gloves when it comes to relations with 2 of the us main rivals and with harsh rhetoric against russia and china the us president's apparently looking to make good on his pledge that america is back and won't be pushed around both rivals responded promptly and angrily how prepared is the u.s. for a dramatic deterioration in relations and will america has allies go along and biden

confronts russia and china but can the u.s. when. cut. down on. welcome to to the point it's a pleasure to greet our guests matthew carney the cheek is from the u.s. magazine politico and he says biden's foreign policy course won't lead to confrontation it will help the world avoid one by making clear to both china and russia where the red lines are. it's great to have a mild laming with us once again he's from the berlin daily death tug of spiegel and his opinion if all 3 big powers abandon any sense of caution then a very messy escalation could follow. and it's a pleasure to welcome hunch when leaned from the w.'s asia desk she thinks china's will for your to. a mistake the more aggressive it gets the closer the west will be

drawn together. so matthew you talk in your opening statement about red lines and as we all know red lines can become an embarrassment for a leader who doesn't follow up with deeds so let me ask all of you but i'll start with matthew how surprised have you been at the harsh rhetoric coming from joe biden and his administration and is there a risk that they're overshooting the mark i personally don't think that they're overshooting the mark i have been surprised because i think that over the past several years there's been a lot of question about what u.s. foreign policy is and what matters to the united states when it comes to these issues and i think this was really the goal that biden was pursuing with this was to say you know we do have values we're going to fight for these values we're going to stand up for these values globally and to make clear that what we've seen over

the past several years is an anomaly and that it's not all just about trade it's not all just about making money that the united states is still going to stand up for people's rights for human rights when it thinks it's necessary so i think that the real audience was not so much the regime in beijing or lattimer putin but the public at large the global public as it were so biden essentially saying he's the not to trump what do you think were you surprised at the harshness of this rhetoric and do you think it's overshooting. i was surprised or not surprised not surprised in a sense that because biden has already made it very clear before he became president. that both parties will have to be harsh on china so he already said that so i was. surprised that. the rhetoric has become so harsh but it's also

a little bit surprising the sense that the meeting in alaska the way that they spoke to each other in such a such a blunt way a clear way i was actually a little bit surprised by that and i think it's important. for the u.s. it was an important step for the u.s. to actually make it clear to. its audience in the domestic market so to say in the u.s. and also to the audience in the you that the u.s. this back i think it's it was the right step for us and we're going to take a look at that meeting in anchorage in a moment but 1st of all same question to you were you surprised and what do you think about overshooting was a little surprised i mean it is a national politics and security questions that sometimes the difference between being right and being wise. you can be right about calling velma putin a killer or i would doubt that the russian the hardest human rights violation

already is something like a genocide but even the question is is it wise to do what purpose does it serve. if you and one hand sort of the the rhetoric of the communist chinese party because they say all the what the west is doing it's an unsuccessful regime with the only weapon they have is the morality and they try to to. try to have the moral supremacy about our system by pointing to that it might feed just the rhetoric without any consequence if you afterward sit down with them and talk business what would really what kind of. following what and we want to talk in a moment about whether it's still possible to talk of business then particularly in the wake of the january attack on the u.s. capital both russia and china have depicted the u.s. as weakened by political divisions. endemic mismanagement and economic instability

biden's reassertion of america's moral authority appears designed to prove those accusations wrong even at the price of increasingly bitter relations. is the 1st meeting of top u.s. and chinese diplomats of the biden era the mood is frosty. also discuss our deep concerns with actions by trying to including actions wrong hong kong taiwan cyber attacks on the united states economic coercion toward our us. each of these actions threaten the rules based order that maintains will stability . in response china brings up racism in the us rejecting any interference in its domestic affairs. our hope is that when talking about universal values or international public opinion the u.s. side will think about whether it feels entitled to say those things because it does

not represent the world it only represents the government of the united states. 2 days earlier joe biden made serious accusations against the russian president in a television interview you know vladimir putin you think is a killer. for doing so what price must he pay the price is going to pay well you'll see shortly. after the u.s. president didn't clarify whether he was alluding to the poisoning of russian opposition leader alexei navalny. and their response from moscow was calm. as biden said we know each other personally what would i reply to him i would say i wish you had i say that without any irony to visit when you should be. but what is joe biden hoping to achieve with this harsh rhetoric. matthew and i want to pass that question right on to you your said clearly by. signaling he's

the non trump but beyond that what is he looking to achieve and what is he likely to achieve well i think one of the main goals he has is to bring other western allies on board to the u.s. position on china and i think that is something where he's actually already had some progress because there had been divisions within sort of the western alliance about how to approach china and whether to look the other way in the face of abuses like the ones against that we yours and others and i think part of this is really directed at europe in particular to say we need you to come with us as we approach china going forward because there's been a wholesale repositioning i would say of the united states strategy towards china that began under trump already it realization that the wealth that china now has that it has built up over the last 20 or 30 years is not going to result in

a more democratic china which is what many liberals in the west had hoped and there's i think broad consensus now in the united states and much of europe that that's just not going to happen china is an authoritarian state and we need to be prepared for the consequences of that and act accordingly and i think this is what his mission is. let's talk a little bit about what the chinese reaction was we heard after those meetings in alaska from the american side that behind closed doors the tone was more civil what did chinese leadership have to say about the tone behind closed doors if anything well i think for china they didn't expect that they didn't expect it to be so that the tone would be would have been so harsh and i think for china it is now clear that the you as it's not going. i think because before before the meeting.

there were still a little bit of hopes that as might actually still be because it's biden out or it's not trump it's like a little bit more predictable maybe that he might be a little bit. he might go just go a little bit more like. a track but i think after this meeting it's just very clear that the u.s. it's not going down that route that it's going to compete with china and what are you hearing from china in terms of whether they think it will remain as confrontational as it apparently was in courage will will there in fact be more trade war more trade conflict essentially more of the trump approach i think china . and especially because of the. diplomacy that it whole ready has been trying to do since 17 it has

increasingly been harsh on other neighbors when like when they were attacked and they have tried to. like to try to show. the chinese people that trying the china is now strong that it can compete with the west and neighbors and i think china is going down that route that it's focusing much more on the domestic market that it's. driving itself away from corporation with the west but try to look into the domestic market how can how can. people from the chinese people think in like about china it's much more important for them to himself has repeatedly said that there are certain topics and areas on which the u.s. must cooperate with russia and china be it arms control climate change. do you think

that a pragmatic approach that off so late between confrontation and cooperation is actually still possible side by side with this maximum pressure rhetoric it is maximum pressure there is nothing in international relationship that is more powerful that accusing someone of committing genocide this is the strongest language. on the other hand i strongly hope that both sides the chinese and the americans do know what you just said that they have to cooperate on climate on the lot of a lot of topics. so i think that the chinese side knows very well that it is more although she has symbolism rhetoric symbolism what it says because on the one hand what kind of morality are you showing if you accusing somebody of committing genocide and talking to them for too long days and which in alaska and said we had

some intensive talks and things like that that doesn't sound very convincing. matthew russian the u.s. actually very quickly decided to restart the nuclear arms agreement start after biden's inauguration now following this accusation against. russia recalled its ambassador from washington for the 1st time in decades won't this bitter turn in relations make further arms control negotiations. were difficult no i think i think just the opposite in fact i mean i my my read is that the russians are probably relieved by this because now they know ok this is the position of the white house and previously it wasn't it wasn't clear what the position was going to be and i think the chinese are probably also relieved in the sense that they know who they're dealing with and what they're dealing with and the russians a look at it very pragmatically they benefit from the start treaty just as much as

the u.s. nobody wants to you know be investing all of this money in nuclear capability certainly the russians don't i mean people forget that the that russia itself as an economy is roughly the size of spain it is it is not on the same plane as the united states it is not on the same plane as china and so this is really actually extending a hand to russia saying look will renew this treaty and there's no reason that they shouldn't take them up on that and i think that's also true of the chinese because you know china also has pressures that it has to deal with with its domestic population and the less money they have to spend on nuclear which costs a lot the better. let me pick up on the point you made about russia and china being in very different places in terms of their power to reject a raise. or a title and much of the media reporting about this new harsh rhetoric does lumped

together china and russia but the fact is russia is a declining power and china is absolutely a rising one what impact do you think that would have in terms of the response that we're likely to see from china for example i think. i think what we're going to see is to china and russia it's going to be close it's pushing them closer together that china and russia they are already cooperating in different things like they have weapons they trade weapons and. they already have that kind of relationship and i think with the harsh rhetoric from the u.s. and with the west it's going to push them closer together even if that's that might be just symbolic but it just gives them the chance to stand closer together to one thing that both countries also very much share is insistence that other powers including multilateral institutions like the united

nations have no right to meddle in their internal affairs is that what biden essentially is doing here and are these countries abuses of human rights ultimately are nearly impossible to influence from the. question is how strong is the language i mean the reaction that we just saw from vladimir putin to a biden said is quite telling because they know each other because biden was in the white house obama was president barack obama was president when the crimean was next and when the war in ukraine starts and things like this so that it was condemned for the time as well barack obama in the backyard was. yes would you do was morally condemned of all and so on and so on so who knows him very well knows what he what he thinks about those words and wishing him health is mean he's he's clearly appealing to his old age and things like that so it is kind of

a very self sort of reaction to what. matthew there been a lot of rounds of sanctions in the past. now the u.s. is imposing yet another round on russia but frankly so far neither harsh rhetoric nor sanctions appear to have really had any influence on russia's behavior why should things be any different now. well again i you know that might not be different in terms of russia's behavior it might be different however in terms of showing the rest of the world that what russia is doing or what china is doing is not in order and there needs to be some kind of reaction to it and i think that public opinion is very important in these questions and it does hit obviously the individuals against whom sanctions are targeted. but sanctions also give you a negotiating chip later on as the people forget there's never

a very very rarely a case where a country like the united states imposes sanctions on another country and then the other country just sort of you know gives up whatever it's doing but what it does do is that later on in the go she asians we've seen this with russia by removing the sanctions gets you in the negotiation. allows you to convince them to do something that you don't want them to do so i think that's that's how i would look at it it is not the silver bullet by any means let's talk a little bit about where europe is in all of this biden in fact has repeatedly pared his motto that the u.s. is back with the vow to work together with america's european allies and indeed earlier this week the e.u. joined the us britain and canada in imposing sanctions against china for the 1st time in 30 years. as recently as december the e.u. signed a new investment agreement with china to the dismay of the united states now it has

sanction in the country for human rights violations against the muslim minority independent human rights organizations estimate that 100000 other muslims are being detained and mistreated in camps and. for a long time the e.u. is top priority was trade with beijing now following the example of the us brussels is also playing hardball. we have taken this. responsible for human rights. for their role impassive. people brussels is stepping up sanctions against russian

officials most recently the e.u. impose sanctions on russia over the poisoning of now imprisoned kremlin opponents. by imposing sanctions the u.s. and the european union are slowly tightening the screws. but how much further is europe really willing to go. let me put that question to motor mount in your opening statement you said that none of the 3 powers russia china or the u.s. has a real interest in escalation but the fact is that is a very much a european perspective europe in general and germany in particular have repeatedly made it clear that they are very concerned about being forced to essentially take sides in a us china cold war. and possibly also with us hostility versus. russia do you think that's what's happening here is the e.u. now with these latest sanctions against china essentially forced to take sides.

in a way yes and. always say if it's through through partnerships or through nato or through other institutions there's always a very strong link between european union and the united states and it's. even if it's for the security of your of behind a real still relying on the american nuclear umbrella for that so there is and we are democracies that binds us together we share the same values. the question is the threat of escalation we have the experience from the cold war we're always afraid about escalating things. all 3 countries a member of the united nations security council all 3 are nuclear powers so there's never a military solution for any kind of conflict so i think that sanctions became just another tool of international diplomacy doesn't really hurt

a country functions very well with one exception to south africa. of all other countries like from sudan through libya through serbia all of those it never does it will not bring the chinese communist party to to collapse let me ask some spanish she agrees with that and is there joint action on the part of the u.s. and europe that could influence chimes behavior and i do agree that the sanctions are largely symbolic because it was just against a few people which will bring much in fact really but i think that the action itself the symbolic action itself it's a big step because for europe it has it was so reluctant to actually take any stance and as you've already said it's the 1st time in 30 years and i think that's a big and i think that's a big step it's a big decision for them to take and in terms of and to answer your question if

that's going to change china's behavior i don't think the sanctions can change china's big. to be honest but if the u.s. continues this course and to come and if they can connect the western powers to get power together and people who have the same country sorry who have which have the same believes and combine that economic power together i think that's going to have an effect but. let's say. united states of europe on the other hand europe is the weakest link so there is a temptation for the chinese to say if you want to kind of battle we go for the weakest link not for the strong competitor united states. how far do you think europe will be willing to go particularly with that awareness of how dependent it is on china's market well i think germany is very dependent on the chinese market the rest of europe is not as dependent on chinese market china is the largest

trading partner now for the e.u. i believe although it's mainly because they export so much from china they're not selling as much to china as they are to united states for example united states is more important export market for europe as a whole so europe is as marty said very reliant on the u.s. in various ways especially for its security i think that the fact that it is kind of come around on china is more a sign that they're accepting the reality as it is and that's why things like the sanctions i would argue are important because it creates moral clarity and i think as recently as december when the e.u. was doing this investment deal with china there was a feeling of well the chinese you know they're not nice to the leaders but you know they're they're also you know the americans are nice to certain people too and there's sort of bad things going on everywhere which is you know kind of a kind of justification i think in a lot of europeans minds for continuing on the previous course that has gone out

the window now so you can see that biden's a pro. what the pressure that lincoln is exerting behind the pressure is already having an effect very briefly almost out of time but quickly from you and also from north stream bringing it back to russia is it time if we're talking about serious pressure and working together with the u.s. for germany to put the gas pipeline north stream that essentially is a deal with russia to rest i think it is i don't think germany will do it because it has refused to do it for so long yes. it is. strained because they got rid of nuclear power and coal powered so that if this gas is the only thing that's left to fulfill his needs and a jeweler's so it's not going to happen in europe. thank you very much to all of you for being with us here today and thanks to all of you out there for tuning in see you soon.

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this is g.w. news live from berlin setbacks in the suez canal operators failed in their latest bid to refloat a stranded cargo ship diggers draggers and tug boats have been trying to free the huge vessel for day hundreds of other ships are now stuck in a maritime traffic jam causing a major headache for global trade. also coming up tragedy on the tracks at least 32 people are killed and over a 100 more injured in a high speed train collision in egypt. and is the worst way for.